Comments on: Do you feel like this doesn’t happen so much with other teams? Me too. (Why the Sox and Scott could be on a fatal collision course.) http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/ Media, Baseball, Boston, the Red Sox, Music, Literature, and Mnookins Sat, 11 Oct 2008 18:43:47 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: grady http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/#comment-3554 grady Wed, 13 Dec 2006 14:37:43 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/#comment-3554 How many of us would feel that "the right thing to do" would be to consider money we would never see (posting fee) in our salary negotiations? If another company paid your company for the right to hire you, would it be fair of them to use that against you and expect you to accept less than the market rate for people of your experience and ability? Obviously we are talking about lots of money here, but it seems a bit unfair to label DM as "greedy" or dishonorable for expecting to get paid a salary commensurate with his abilities. The Sox over bid for the right to negotiate with the expectation that they would somehow get out of some of it; why do we slam DM for not being willing to eat their mistake? Would the comments here be the same if it was the Yankees who were negotiating with Boras? Would we all expect DM to "do the right thing," stop being "greedy," and "respect the game"? How many of us would feel that “the right thing to do” would be to consider money we would never see (posting fee) in our salary negotiations? If another company paid your company for the right to hire you, would it be fair of them to use that against you and expect you to accept less than the market rate for people of your experience and ability?

Obviously we are talking about lots of money here, but it seems a bit unfair to label DM as “greedy” or dishonorable for expecting to get paid a salary commensurate with his abilities. The Sox over bid for the right to negotiate with the expectation that they would somehow get out of some of it; why do we slam DM for not being willing to eat their mistake?

Would the comments here be the same if it was the Yankees who were negotiating with Boras? Would we all expect DM to “do the right thing,” stop being “greedy,” and “respect the game”?

]]> By: msquared64 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/#comment-3551 msquared64 Wed, 13 Dec 2006 13:42:28 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/#comment-3551 Didn't the Millar fiasco happen the offseason before the A-Rod/Manny/Magglio/Nomar stuff? Millar felt it was necessary to spout off on ESPN that having A-Rod was better than having Nomar, Manny, dignity, etc. during that whole thing. He was brought in the year before, no? I am probably wrong, as displayed by your blog, you know way more than I do about the Sox... <i>Nope, you're definitely right -- Millar was one of the many folks brought in before the '03 season (Ortiz, Mueller, Toddy Walker); the A-Rod not-trade was after the '03 season. -- S</i> Didn’t the Millar fiasco happen the offseason before the A-Rod/Manny/Magglio/Nomar stuff? Millar felt it was necessary to spout off on ESPN that having A-Rod was better than having Nomar, Manny, dignity, etc. during that whole thing. He was brought in the year before, no?

I am probably wrong, as displayed by your blog, you know way more than I do about the Sox…

Nope, you’re definitely right — Millar was one of the many folks brought in before the ‘03 season (Ortiz, Mueller, Toddy Walker); the A-Rod not-trade was after the ‘03 season.

– S

]]> By: obnoxiousmime http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/#comment-3537 obnoxiousmime Wed, 13 Dec 2006 02:40:14 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/#comment-3537 I asked my one Japanese friend to characterize the feeling about the Matsuzaka negotiations in Japan, and here's what he emailed to me: Matsuzaka-mania is pretty crazy here, naturally. The media here report everything favorably, with great enthusiasm. The media are already hyping up the match-up between him and the already-exported Japanese stars (Ichiro, Matsui, Iguchi, Johjima, all of whom play in the AL). The Red Sox are being portrayed positively, FINALLY! Previously, because of the presence of Matsui in NY, its rival Red Sox had been portrayed as "The Enemy" (I guess people forgot that Nomo and Ohka pitched for the Sox for a season or so). Anyway, it's not like that anymore. I'm almost certain that Matsuzaka will sign with the Sox. Playing in Japan for another year, after all this media hype, is unthinkable. The Japanese people (even those who don't know much about baseball) are so excited about this whole thing. I mean, most people already think this is a done deal. If he stayed in Japan, people would be confused and it'd be like "What the hell was that all about?", and, probably, a lot of people would be pissed. And THAT would be bad for everyone. For Matsuzaka himself, too. It'd be embarassing, and harmful to his career. Do you remember the Japanese hitter named Nakamura? 4-5 years ago, he almost signed with the Mets, but backed out. He ended up staying here, and suddenly nobody gave a shit, and he started to suck badly. Several years later, he did end up going to the MLB for one season (the Dodgers, but played mostly in the minors) and no media coverage whatsoever. He used to be a star, but that "incident" more or less destroyed his career. So, as for Matsuzaka, he'll be in the Sox uniform in 2007, I'm sure. We'll know that for sure this week, right? And I think he's a helluva pitcher who'll do well, though I don't know the legitimacy of the so-called "gyroball." The pressure is tremendous in Japan and that is why I think he will sign. I asked my one Japanese friend to characterize the feeling about the Matsuzaka negotiations in Japan, and here’s what he emailed to me:

Matsuzaka-mania is pretty crazy here, naturally. The media here report
everything favorably, with great enthusiasm. The media are already
hyping up the match-up between him and the already-exported Japanese stars
(Ichiro, Matsui, Iguchi, Johjima, all of whom play in the AL).

The Red Sox are being portrayed positively, FINALLY! Previously,
because of the presence of Matsui in NY, its rival Red Sox had been portrayed as “The Enemy” (I guess people forgot that Nomo and Ohka pitched for the Sox
for a season or so). Anyway, it’s not like that anymore.

I’m almost certain that Matsuzaka will sign with the Sox. Playing in
Japan for another year, after all this media hype, is unthinkable. The
Japanese people (even those who don’t know much about baseball) are so excited
about this whole thing. I mean, most people already think this is a done
deal. If he stayed in Japan, people would be confused and it’d be like “What the hell was that all about?”, and, probably, a lot of people would be pissed.
And THAT would be bad for everyone. For Matsuzaka himself, too. It’d be
embarassing, and harmful to his career.

Do you remember the Japanese hitter named Nakamura? 4-5 years ago, he
almost signed with the Mets, but backed out. He ended up staying here, and
suddenly nobody gave a shit, and he started to suck badly. Several years later, he did end up going to the MLB for one season (the Dodgers, but played mostly in the minors) and no media coverage whatsoever. He used to be a star, but that “incident” more or less destroyed his career.

So, as for Matsuzaka, he’ll be in the Sox uniform in 2007, I’m sure.
We’ll know that for sure this week, right? And I think he’s a helluva
pitcher who’ll do well, though I don’t know the legitimacy of the so-called
“gyroball.”

The pressure is tremendous in Japan and that is why I think he will sign.

]]> By: chrisneves http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/#comment-3536 chrisneves Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:56:54 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/#comment-3536 jim, the sox also bid for marketing rights in japan. if the sox really wanted a pitcher that good they would have got jason schmidt. they opted for matsuzaka because he is a good pitcher and is highly rated but would give the sox a big fanbase in japan and thus expand marketing rights. in a year or two the redsox could make up that 51 million easy and then just worry about the contract of matsuzaka but thats still getting paid for by marketing in japan. so if we signed him we'd be out 51 million dollars but next year well have that all back. I hope that a deal does get done because i would like to know what the fuss about this guy really is even ifhe doesnt throw a gyroball, though id rather had schimdt... jim, the sox also bid for marketing rights in japan. if the sox really wanted a pitcher that good they would have got jason schmidt. they opted for matsuzaka because he is a good pitcher and is highly rated but would give the sox a big fanbase in japan and thus expand marketing rights. in a year or two the redsox could make up that 51 million easy and then just worry about the contract of matsuzaka but thats still getting paid for by marketing in japan. so if we signed him we’d be out 51 million dollars but next year well have that all back.
I hope that a deal does get done because i would like to know what the fuss about this guy really is even ifhe doesnt throw a gyroball, though id rather had schimdt…

]]> By: dude http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/#comment-3535 dude Wed, 13 Dec 2006 00:50:17 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/#comment-3535 A couple of things to think about: 1. Boras is playing hardball. We've all seen it time and time again. Now, the Red Sox are openly challenging him in his own backyard of Newport Beach, CA. This should be very interesting, or just anticlimatic. 2. Matsuzaka is a hell of a pitcher, no doubt. He's got a crazy amount of pitches and he throws for strikeouts. But, he has pitched a lot of innings for his age. If he were to wait a couple of years, by not taking the offer from the Red Sox, then he has a chance of not reaping those benefits in the first place, namely by being injured in game while he plays in Japan. Who knows if that might happen in Boston were he to sign here? 3. Japan is a much different country, culturally speaking, than the US. Honor and respect are very important in Japanese society. It was hundreds of years ago and still is today. It's an almost inbred quality of the Japanese; they are taught it from a very young age. But, who knows if Matsuzaka follows that tradition, or if he's not and would rather be greedy instead? I don't know of him well enough to give an honest response; but, I have a feeling that he knows what is the right thing to do and that's to negotiate with honor and respect. He's the wildcard in this lot. 4. Matsuzaka hasn't played in the big leagues. Don't get me wrong but the Japan Leagues are a far cry from even the worst team in the MLB. They just don't stack up against each other; the MLB has a much deeper reserve of the best players in the world of baseball. Matsuzaka is good. But, he's going to have to play up against a group of players, in the form of the MLB players, that exceeded the best players in the Japanese League by leaps and bounds. He's an anamoly, of sorts, in Japan; he's VERY dominating in a league that can't come close to his level of play. ---- So, those are things that are in my head right now. I think Matsuzaka is going to sign; I think he's going to be respectful of the game because he enjoys it and wants to play in the Majors. I think the Red Sox are smart in going to LA to play the game there. Enough of the BS from Boras. This is like a rush up the middle by the Boston club. Personally, I think Matsuzaka will see the interest, realize his own potential in Boston, and will be with us for 4 years somewhere between $46 - 52M. If they pay any more than that they'll have just sunk too much money on a player who is an untested commodity in the Majors. His recent series against the MLB all stars doesn't cut it for me. That said, I with Matsuzaka good luck. A couple of things to think about:

1. Boras is playing hardball. We’ve all seen it time and time again. Now, the Red Sox are openly challenging him in his own backyard of Newport Beach, CA. This should be very interesting, or just anticlimatic.

2. Matsuzaka is a hell of a pitcher, no doubt. He’s got a crazy amount of pitches and he throws for strikeouts. But, he has pitched a lot of innings for his age. If he were to wait a couple of years, by not taking the offer from the Red Sox, then he has a chance of not reaping those benefits in the first place, namely by being injured in game while he plays in Japan. Who knows if that might happen in Boston were he to sign here?

3. Japan is a much different country, culturally speaking, than the US. Honor and respect are very important in Japanese society. It was hundreds of years ago and still is today. It’s an almost inbred quality of the Japanese; they are taught it from a very young age. But, who knows if Matsuzaka follows that tradition, or if he’s not and would rather be greedy instead? I don’t know of him well enough to give an honest response; but, I have a feeling that he knows what is the right thing to do and that’s to negotiate with honor and respect. He’s the wildcard in this lot.

4. Matsuzaka hasn’t played in the big leagues. Don’t get me wrong but the Japan Leagues are a far cry from even the worst team in the MLB. They just don’t stack up against each other; the MLB has a much deeper reserve of the best players in the world of baseball. Matsuzaka is good. But, he’s going to have to play up against a group of players, in the form of the MLB players, that exceeded the best players in the Japanese League by leaps and bounds. He’s an anamoly, of sorts, in Japan; he’s VERY dominating in a league that can’t come close to his level of play.

—-

So, those are things that are in my head right now. I think Matsuzaka is going to sign; I think he’s going to be respectful of the game because he enjoys it and wants to play in the Majors. I think the Red Sox are smart in going to LA to play the game there. Enough of the BS from Boras. This is like a rush up the middle by the Boston club. Personally, I think Matsuzaka will see the interest, realize his own potential in Boston, and will be with us for 4 years somewhere between $46 - 52M. If they pay any more than that they’ll have just sunk too much money on a player who is an untested commodity in the Majors. His recent series against the MLB all stars doesn’t cut it for me. That said, I with Matsuzaka good luck.

]]> By: vintage http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/#comment-3509 vintage Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:56:12 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/#comment-3509 While Boras may be more experienced in the ways of negotiating than the Sox brass, he may be underestimating the Sox "gamesmanship". It is a brilliant move by the Sox to take the negotiations public (and to LA). Boras' insistence on complete control could very conceivably mean that Matsuzaka has no real idea what the Sox are offering. He is now virtually certain to hear of the Sox stance either in person, via the internet or from friends. It's fairly obvious that Boras would love to challenge the posting system & hold Dice-K hostage until a HUGE 2008 payday. Hopefully the player will realize that a few more digits on his bank statement (as Buster Olney properly notes) doesn't outweigh his love for the game & his desire to perform on the biggest stage. While Boras may be more experienced in the ways of negotiating than the Sox brass, he may be underestimating the Sox “gamesmanship”.
It is a brilliant move by the Sox to take the negotiations public (and to LA). Boras’ insistence on complete control could very conceivably mean that Matsuzaka has no real idea what the Sox are offering. He is now virtually certain to hear of the Sox stance either in person, via the internet or from friends.
It’s fairly obvious that Boras would love to challenge the posting system & hold Dice-K hostage until a HUGE 2008 payday. Hopefully the player will realize that a few more digits on his bank statement (as Buster Olney properly notes) doesn’t outweigh his love for the game & his desire to perform on the biggest stage.

]]> By: MarshallDog http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/#comment-3505 MarshallDog Tue, 12 Dec 2006 17:08:54 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/12/do-you-feel-like-this-doesnt-happen-so-much-with-other-teams-me-too-why-the-sox-and-scott-could-be-on-a-fatal-collision-course/#comment-3505 It's not exactly "leveraging" the money into the contract, but more saying to Matsuzaka and Boras, "Yes, we agree the player is worth more than $100 mil, but we've already invested half of that." If that's really the case, the Sox most recent offer is probably a Gil Meache-type deal, maybe 6 years, $60 mil. That would put his value at almost $20 mil per season. The hope would be Matsuzaka recognizes how much value the Sox have placed on him, not to mention the fact that they are willing to pay him like a solid major league veteran despite never pitching in the majors. Boras doesn't see the posting fee as part of the investment. His argument is, "If you put my client's value at $100 mil, then he should be paid that much." Boras will insist on a four or five year deal, so his client can reach free agency again before turning 32, which has become sort of that magic age for veteran free agents. So five years, $100 mil, plus $51 mil posting fee... that would make Matsuzaka worth more than $30 mil per season! Even without the posting fee, that would be a $20 mil per year contract. Boras said that is the going rate for 26 year old pitchers. How many pitchers of any age have gotten that kind of deal? This kind of money is hardly arguing pennies. Even killing the deal over $20 mil would not be unreasonable. I know I've posted about this a lot the last couple of days, but this whole situation is so nutty, I can't help myself... I must discuss it! It’s not exactly “leveraging” the money into the contract, but more saying to Matsuzaka and Boras, “Yes, we agree the player is worth more than $100 mil, but we’ve already invested half of that.” If that’s really the case, the Sox most recent offer is probably a Gil Meache-type deal, maybe 6 years, $60 mil. That would put his value at almost $20 mil per season. The hope would be Matsuzaka recognizes how much value the Sox have placed on him, not to mention the fact that they are willing to pay him like a solid major league veteran despite never pitching in the majors.

Boras doesn’t see the posting fee as part of the investment. His argument is, “If you put my client’s value at $100 mil, then he should be paid that much.” Boras will insist on a four or five year deal, so his client can reach free agency again before turning 32, which has become sort of that magic age for veteran free agents. So five years, $100 mil, plus $51 mil posting fee… that would make Matsuzaka worth more than $30 mil per season! Even without the posting fee, that would be a $20 mil per year contract. Boras said that is the going rate for 26 year old pitchers. How many pitchers of any age have gotten that kind of deal?

This kind of money is hardly arguing pennies. Even killing the deal over $20 mil would not be unreasonable. I know I’ve posted about this a lot the last couple of days, but this whole situation is so nutty, I can’t help myself… I must discuss it!

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