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Comments on: In which I refuse to take a position on the whole Jim Ed in the Hall debate http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/30/in-which-i-refuse-to-take-a-position-on-the-whole-jim-ed-in-the-hall-debate/ Media, Baseball, Boston, the Red Sox, Music, Literature, and Mnookins Sat, 05 Jul 2008 16:47:05 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: bmoseley07 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/30/in-which-i-refuse-to-take-a-position-on-the-whole-jim-ed-in-the-hall-debate/#comment-4872 Sun, 31 Dec 2006 22:48:12 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/30/in-which-i-refuse-to-take-a-position-on-the-whole-jim-ed-in-the-hall-debate/#comment-4872 I agree that Sandy Koufax should be in, but Koufax's 6 years were all in row and his stats and skillset was incredibly better than any challenger. Rice's dominance doesn't equal Koufax's. "The bottom line is the HOF is inconsistent with their criteria." I completely agree with that and that's one reason why I am questioning the induction of Rice. Also agree that Ripken and Gwynn should be unanimous as well. And I'll take that even further and say that anybody suspected of steriod use (i.e. Mark McGwire) shouldn't be elected until their name is cleared- that is, if it gets cleared. And think this second ballot bullshit is a disgrace. A HOFer is a HOFer, whether the get in ballot 1 or ballot 2 is a moot point. I agree that Sandy Koufax should be in, but Koufax’s 6 years were all in row and his stats and skillset was incredibly better than any challenger. Rice’s dominance doesn’t equal Koufax’s.

“The bottom line is the HOF is inconsistent with their criteria.” I completely agree with that and that’s one reason why I am questioning the induction of Rice.

Also agree that Ripken and Gwynn should be unanimous as well. And I’ll take that even further and say that anybody suspected of steriod use (i.e. Mark McGwire) shouldn’t be elected until their name is cleared- that is, if it gets cleared. And think this second ballot bullshit is a disgrace. A HOFer is a HOFer, whether the get in ballot 1 or ballot 2 is a moot point.

]]> by: PatsFanDK http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/30/in-which-i-refuse-to-take-a-position-on-the-whole-jim-ed-in-the-hall-debate/#comment-4870 Sun, 31 Dec 2006 18:31:12 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/30/in-which-i-refuse-to-take-a-position-on-the-whole-jim-ed-in-the-hall-debate/#comment-4870 How many seasons of HOF worthiness did Sandy Koufax have? Only 5 or 6. He got in easily. He only had 166 career wins. I think Koufax deserves to be in because he was the best in the game for half a decade. Rice was perhaps the most feared hitter in the AL for close to a decade and he has the numbers to back it up. There are plenty of players without the "longevity" aspect that are in or should be in. The bottom line is the HOF is inconsistent with their criteria. BTW, Ripken and Gwynn should be unanimous selections. How many seasons of HOF worthiness did Sandy Koufax have? Only 5 or 6. He got in easily. He only had 166 career wins. I think Koufax deserves to be in because he was the best in the game for half a decade. Rice was perhaps the most feared hitter in the AL for close to a decade and he has the numbers to back it up. There are plenty of players without the “longevity” aspect that are in or should be in.

The bottom line is the HOF is inconsistent with their criteria. BTW, Ripken and Gwynn should be unanimous selections.

]]> by: bmoseley07 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/30/in-which-i-refuse-to-take-a-position-on-the-whole-jim-ed-in-the-hall-debate/#comment-4867 Sun, 31 Dec 2006 07:44:45 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/30/in-which-i-refuse-to-take-a-position-on-the-whole-jim-ed-in-the-hall-debate/#comment-4867 I disagree. Rice had only 8 seasons of Hall of Fame worthiness and they weren't even in a row. The guy was all but missing in his prime years from 1980-1982 and dropped off when he was only 33. That doesn't present me with the makings on a Hall of Famer. PatsFanDk, you say that they put too much emphasis on longevity and benchmarks while I disagree. I don't like benchmarks, but I think to be a HOFer you have to have three qualities: greatness, longevity and consistency. Cal Rikpken Jr. and Tony Gwynn have those. Rice doesn't. If he instead was great in those three missing years in his 20's, I'd vote him in, but for me, it's greatness over a period of time, that's how you mark worthiness. I actually wrote a whole article about this, so if you want to read my whole counter argument, you can <a href="http://herestonextyear.blogspot.com/2006/12/does-rice-blong-in-hall.html" rel="nofollow">here</a>. I disagree. Rice had only 8 seasons of Hall of Fame worthiness and they weren’t even in a row. The guy was all but missing in his prime years from 1980-1982 and dropped off when he was only 33. That doesn’t present me with the makings on a Hall of Famer.

PatsFanDk, you say that they put too much emphasis on longevity and benchmarks while I disagree. I don’t like benchmarks, but I think to be a HOFer you have to have three qualities: greatness, longevity and consistency. Cal Rikpken Jr. and Tony Gwynn have those. Rice doesn’t. If he instead was great in those three missing years in his 20’s, I’d vote him in, but for me, it’s greatness over a period of time, that’s how you mark worthiness.

I actually wrote a whole article about this, so if you want to read my whole counter argument, you can here.

]]> by: HFXBOB http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/30/in-which-i-refuse-to-take-a-position-on-the-whole-jim-ed-in-the-hall-debate/#comment-4854 Sun, 31 Dec 2006 01:48:34 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/30/in-which-i-refuse-to-take-a-position-on-the-whole-jim-ed-in-the-hall-debate/#comment-4854 PatsFanDK: I think you're bang on, longevity is given too much weight. If Rice doesn't get in it will clinch that point. Twelve years at the top of the game should be enough. PatsFanDK: I think you’re bang on, longevity is given too much weight. If Rice doesn’t get in it will clinch that point. Twelve years at the top of the game should be enough.

]]> by: PatsFanDK http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/30/in-which-i-refuse-to-take-a-position-on-the-whole-jim-ed-in-the-hall-debate/#comment-4850 Sun, 31 Dec 2006 00:31:29 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/30/in-which-i-refuse-to-take-a-position-on-the-whole-jim-ed-in-the-hall-debate/#comment-4850 What frustrates me about the HOF is that they reward longevity way too much. It should be about greatness - were you an elite player for an extended period? In Rice's case, yes. Some may argue he didn't do it long enough. However, suppose Rice squeezed out a couple more mediocre seasons and ended up with over 400 HR and close to 1600 RBI. He would have a much better chance of getting in. I think the system is flawed. They reward players for hitting "threshold" numbers like 500 homers and 300 wins. There are some 300 game winners that shouldn't be in (Don Sutton comes to mind) and good thing McGwire won't get in, because he was as one dimensional as it gets. Who's with me on this? What frustrates me about the HOF is that they reward longevity way too much. It should be about greatness - were you an elite player for an extended period? In Rice’s case, yes. Some may argue he didn’t do it long enough. However, suppose Rice squeezed out a couple more mediocre seasons and ended up with over 400 HR and close to 1600 RBI. He would have a much better chance of getting in.

I think the system is flawed. They reward players for hitting “threshold” numbers like 500 homers and 300 wins. There are some 300 game winners that shouldn’t be in (Don Sutton comes to mind) and good thing McGwire won’t get in, because he was as one dimensional as it gets.

Who’s with me on this?

]]> by: HFXBOB http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/30/in-which-i-refuse-to-take-a-position-on-the-whole-jim-ed-in-the-hall-debate/#comment-4836 Sat, 30 Dec 2006 22:10:52 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2006/12/30/in-which-i-refuse-to-take-a-position-on-the-whole-jim-ed-in-the-hall-debate/#comment-4836 I think Ian Browne makes an excellent case for Rice's Hall worthiness in his article on the Red Sox website. The numbers that Browne rolls out speak for themselves: in the period from 1975-1986 Rice led the AL in almost every offensive category, and he even led in outfield assists. If you're the best offensive player in your league over a twelve-year stretch should that get you in the Hall? I say yes. I think Ian Browne makes an excellent case for Rice’s Hall worthiness in his article on the Red Sox website. The numbers that Browne rolls out speak for themselves: in the period from 1975-1986 Rice led the AL in almost every offensive category, and he even led in outfield assists. If you’re the best offensive player in your league over a twelve-year stretch should that get you in the Hall? I say yes.

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