Comments on: Keeping Score: The Times weighs in with another boneheaded Sox story http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/18/manny-keeping-score/ Media, Baseball, Boston, the Red Sox, Music, Literature, and Mnookins Fri, 05 Dec 2008 16:19:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: ygbluig http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/18/manny-keeping-score/#comment-18624 ygbluig Wed, 21 Mar 2007 00:07:13 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/18/manny-keeping-score/#comment-18624 Two things in that article made me laugh out loud. 1: Manny is such a defensive liability that when you subtract all the runs he allows from the runs he creates, he is on average equal to Nick Swisher of the A's. 2:Moving Manny to DH, Ortiz to 1B and Youk to left would be a defensive upgrade for the Red Sox, because no first baseman, no matter how awful, has ever allowed as many base runners to reach through poor play than Manny does out in left. Having seen Mo Vaugh, Kevin Millar and the worst of the worst Jason Giambi misplay the position, I beg to differ. Two things in that article made me laugh out loud.
1: Manny is such a defensive liability that when you subtract all the runs he allows from the runs he creates, he is on average equal to Nick Swisher of the A’s.
2:Moving Manny to DH, Ortiz to 1B and Youk to left would be a defensive upgrade for the Red Sox, because no first baseman, no matter how awful, has ever allowed as many base runners to reach through poor play than Manny does out in left. Having seen Mo Vaugh, Kevin Millar and the worst of the worst Jason Giambi misplay the position, I beg to differ.

]]> By: tinisoli http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/18/manny-keeping-score/#comment-16779 tinisoli Sun, 18 Mar 2007 17:05:46 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/18/manny-keeping-score/#comment-16779 Will anyone ever get enough access to Manny to write the definitive biography of one of the greatest right-handed hitters in history? I hope so. Perhaps the forthcoming New Yorker profile will be worth reading, but until then we are stuck with the same old "Manny being Manny" musings by Shaughnessy et al, which always trot out the same tired shite about what a confounding goofball he is before ending with the revelation that, hey folks, Manny actually studies the game and works hard and isn't actually retarded. Will anyone ever get enough access to Manny to write the definitive biography of one of the greatest right-handed hitters in history? I hope so. Perhaps the forthcoming New Yorker profile will be worth reading, but until then we are stuck with the same old “Manny being Manny” musings by Shaughnessy et al, which always trot out the same tired shite about what a confounding goofball he is before ending with the revelation that, hey folks, Manny actually studies the game and works hard and isn’t actually retarded.

]]> By: PaulZuvella http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/18/manny-keeping-score/#comment-16762 PaulZuvella Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:46:44 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/18/manny-keeping-score/#comment-16762 Ughh! I thought my first post had been swallowed. My zinger repeated for all to not laugh at. Ughh! I thought my first post had been swallowed. My zinger repeated for all to not laugh at.

]]> By: PaulZuvella http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/18/manny-keeping-score/#comment-16761 PaulZuvella Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:45:36 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/18/manny-keeping-score/#comment-16761 So he called "Big" Papi corpulent? Big whoop! Not every journalist in America has had the good fortune to see Ortiz half-naked. It seems like a nitpick on your part. I think the readers got the point that he might hurt himself if he played out there every day. Perhaps, Rosenheck should have provided a more detailed history of Ortiz's injuries. Again, it seems like a nitpick. More interesting to me is how this informs the discussion of Ortiz's value, and why the issue of his DH-dom is a completely valid one to bring up when discussing MVPs. The fact that Big Papi cannot play in the field hurts the team. Manny is stuck out there when he should be DHing given his fielding woes and the fact that he's getting older and more susceptible to month-long knee injuries. Ortiz is an unbelievable player undoubtedly, but this is exactly why his lack of a position hurts his value. So he called “Big” Papi corpulent? Big whoop! Not every journalist in America has had the good fortune to see Ortiz half-naked. It seems like a nitpick on your part. I think the readers got the point that he might hurt himself if he played out there every day. Perhaps, Rosenheck should have provided a more detailed history of Ortiz’s injuries. Again, it seems like a nitpick. More interesting to me is how this informs the discussion of Ortiz’s value, and why the issue of his DH-dom is a completely valid one to bring up when discussing MVPs. The fact that Big Papi cannot play in the field hurts the team. Manny is stuck out there when he should be DHing given his fielding woes and the fact that he’s getting older and more susceptible to month-long knee injuries. Ortiz is an unbelievable player undoubtedly, but this is exactly why his lack of a position hurts his value.

]]> By: PaulZuvella http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/18/manny-keeping-score/#comment-16750 PaulZuvella Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:15:26 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/18/manny-keeping-score/#comment-16750 I'm clearly confused. In this article, Rosenheck refers to different defensive ranking systems, including Mitch Lightman's widely respected UZR. Are you saying that we should completely discount all defensive ranking systems that are tied to P.B.P? What is the basis for your total disregard for Jeter's defense? I assume it's not just based on what you see. I'd guess you do rely on some metric to support your rather definitive view of Jeter. What is it? And how do you know yours is superior to ones that Rosenheck cites (which, by the way, are also down on Jeter). Do you offer caveats every time you disparage Jeter's play in the field: "We do not know for certain that Jeter sucks at short..." Should Rosenheck's article been filled with caveats? I guess so. But I don't understand your gripe with him. You detect an anti-Sox bias here, but if this article had been written about Jeter, I'm guessing you wouldn't have a problem with it. And big whoop! He called "Big" Papi corpulent. Not every journalist in America has had the good fortune of seeing Ortiz half-naked. I’m clearly confused. In this article, Rosenheck refers to different defensive ranking systems, including Mitch Lightman’s widely respected UZR. Are you saying that we should completely discount all defensive ranking systems that are tied to P.B.P? What is the basis for your total disregard for Jeter’s defense? I assume it’s not just based on what you see. I’d guess you do rely on some metric to support your rather definitive view of Jeter. What is it? And how do you know yours is superior to ones that Rosenheck cites (which, by the way, are also down on Jeter). Do you offer caveats every time you disparage Jeter’s play in the field: “We do not know for certain that Jeter sucks at short…” Should Rosenheck’s article been filled with caveats? I guess so. But I don’t understand your gripe with him. You detect an anti-Sox bias here, but if this article had been written about Jeter, I’m guessing you wouldn’t have a problem with it. And big whoop! He called “Big” Papi corpulent. Not every journalist in America has had the good fortune of seeing Ortiz half-naked.

]]> By: sharrock http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/18/manny-keeping-score/#comment-16734 sharrock Sun, 18 Mar 2007 14:54:40 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/18/manny-keeping-score/#comment-16734 What gives people such an odd take on Manny's defense is that he plays half his games in the craziest LF in baseball. In Fenway he can play this weird high-risk/fairly-high-reward style. He runs around, barely in control, and uses a quick release to sometimes make unexpected outs. Honestly, he makes a couple plays per year at home that are great. But this is a park factor. As a LF in Fenway you can play a wild style or you can play it so well nobody ever tests you or tries to stretch a single into a double. Third base coaches hold up runners because of how well you play bounces and make accurate throws to all bases. Its not flashy but it is highly effective. The wild-ass style is less effective but maybe more fun to watch and more likely to yield highlights. I live in Dallas so for the last five years the only live Manny I see is him patrolling a more normal LF in Arlington. It is a disaster. I sit down 3B line and my fiance and I are have to shake our heads at Manny many times in a given series. He takes bad angles, misjudges when and how to position himself for throws, makes it tough on cutoff men and on and on. Now, having said that, Manny is still one of the best players around. Lets face it, OF defense is often poor, and Manny is probably the most consistent RBI guy over the last ten seasons. He is our semi-lovable headcase. The now-cliched 'hitting savant' who can wow us with his idiocy and then make us cheer with his ability. Sunday mornings make me verbose. What gives people such an odd take on Manny’s defense is that he plays half his games in the craziest LF in baseball. In Fenway he can play this weird high-risk/fairly-high-reward style. He runs around, barely in control, and uses a quick release to sometimes make unexpected outs. Honestly, he makes a couple plays per year at home that are great. But this is a park factor.

As a LF in Fenway you can play a wild style or you can play it so well nobody ever tests you or tries to stretch a single into a double. Third base coaches hold up runners because of how well you play bounces and make accurate throws to all bases. Its not flashy but it is highly effective. The wild-ass style is less effective but maybe more fun to watch and more likely to yield highlights.

I live in Dallas so for the last five years the only live Manny I see is him patrolling a more normal LF in Arlington. It is a disaster. I sit down 3B line and my fiance and I are have to shake our heads at Manny many times in a given series. He takes bad angles, misjudges when and how to position himself for throws, makes it tough on cutoff men and on and on.

Now, having said that, Manny is still one of the best players around. Lets face it, OF defense is often poor, and Manny is probably the most consistent RBI guy over the last ten seasons. He is our semi-lovable headcase. The now-cliched ‘hitting savant’ who can wow us with his idiocy and then make us cheer with his ability.

Sunday mornings make me verbose.

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