Comments on: Pap to the pen: A good move? http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/ Media, Baseball, Boston, the Red Sox, Music, Literature, and Mnookins Sat, 30 Aug 2008 06:50:20 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6 By: dbvader http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/#comment-30648 dbvader Mon, 09 Apr 2007 02:32:14 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/#comment-30648 Seth, PECOTA is a projection system and does not have "Pap as more valuable than both of them, coming in at 38.6 and 7.3"(for 2006). Those figures are measures of past performance. Also, these statistics preceded and are independent of PECOTA. Seth,
PECOTA is a projection system and does not have “Pap as more valuable than both of them, coming in at 38.6 and 7.3″(for 2006). Those figures are measures of past performance. Also, these statistics preceded and are independent of PECOTA.

]]> By: rebbe sox http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/#comment-22940 rebbe sox Tue, 27 Mar 2007 01:31:13 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/#comment-22940 You've got a starter who really wants to be a closer (and has excelled in that role in the past), and you've got a relief pitcher who really wants to be a starter (and has done much better in that role in the past). Tell me, what would you do? This move does not look like desperation to me. I think the logic of the situation has overwhelmed all the initial anxieties about keeping Pap's arm healthy. They went back to the medical people and found out that the difference between starting and relieving was a marginal difference, not a slam dunk, in the stress it would inflict on Pap's arm. From that point, they just couldn't do anything else given the team's needs and the players' desires. Case closed. I don't think Theo was ever going to go after any of the few decent closers on the market. The prices, in terms of giving up talent, were just way too high. None of the available relievers are that great. It's not worth giving up the top notch prospects a mid-level closer costs today. Now Theo's going to use that same crazy market to cash in. He's going to trade Pineiro in a market that's dying to pay too much for him. And here is just another tangent that fascinates me. Today, after a sub-stellar outing in spring training (0 hits in 5 innings, but 5 walks), Dice-K released a statement saying: "I threw a lot of walks and wasted balls and it was tough for my fielders to defend and to get into a good rhythm on offense." Have you ever -- in your entire life -- heard a major league pitcher accept any measure of responsibility for the offense lagging? This is one of the most generous and selfless comments I have ever heard uttered by a major league player. My friends, he had a no-hitter going for five innings and he blames himself for the offense going on vacation. Am I wrong? Have you ever heard of such a thing before? You’ve got a starter who really wants to be a closer (and has excelled in that role in the past), and you’ve got a relief pitcher who really wants to be a starter (and has done much better in that role in the past). Tell me, what would you do?

This move does not look like desperation to me. I think the logic of the situation has overwhelmed all the initial anxieties about keeping Pap’s arm healthy. They went back to the medical people and found out that the difference between starting and relieving was a marginal difference, not a slam dunk, in the stress it would inflict on Pap’s arm. From that point, they just couldn’t do anything else given the team’s needs and the players’ desires. Case closed.

I don’t think Theo was ever going to go after any of the few decent closers on the market. The prices, in terms of giving up talent, were just way too high. None of the available relievers are that great. It’s not worth giving up the top notch prospects a mid-level closer costs today.

Now Theo’s going to use that same crazy market to cash in. He’s going to trade Pineiro in a market that’s dying to pay too much for him.

And here is just another tangent that fascinates me. Today, after a sub-stellar outing in spring training (0 hits in 5 innings, but 5 walks), Dice-K released a statement saying:

“I threw a lot of walks and wasted balls and it was tough for my fielders to defend and to get into a good rhythm on offense.”

Have you ever — in your entire life — heard a major league pitcher accept any measure of responsibility for the offense lagging? This is one of the most generous and selfless comments I have ever heard uttered by a major league player. My friends, he had a no-hitter going for five innings and he blames himself for the offense going on vacation. Am I wrong? Have you ever heard of such a thing before?

]]> By: maineiac http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/#comment-21865 maineiac Sun, 25 Mar 2007 01:46:51 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/#comment-21865 I generally think we had plenty of starter options where as we really had no option for closer. It amazed me that Theo would go so hard and spend so much money on JD when right field was not a "priority", and then just take a wait and see approach with the closer. As someone who saw Craig Hansen pitch in 8 games for AA Portland in 2005 and not surrender a single run, I had great hopes that Craig would dominate this ST. Maybe that's what Theo et al were hoping as well. On the starter situation, I agree with UnretireHurst, Tavarez will not get that many oppurtunities to start if he doesn't produce. We have Kyle Snyder and Devern Hansack ready to go, Jon Lester waiting in the wings, Chris Smith and Kason Gabbard at Pawtucket, and the Rocket and Clement as long term fill ins. Just don't trade any starters Theo. I generally think we had plenty of starter options where as we really had no option for closer.

It amazed me that Theo would go so hard and spend so much money on JD when right field was not a “priority”, and then just take a wait and see approach with the closer. As someone who saw Craig Hansen pitch in 8 games for AA Portland in 2005 and not surrender a single run, I had great hopes that Craig would dominate this ST. Maybe that’s what Theo et al were hoping as well.

On the starter situation, I agree with UnretireHurst, Tavarez will not get that many oppurtunities to start if he doesn’t produce. We have Kyle Snyder and Devern Hansack ready to go, Jon Lester waiting in the wings, Chris Smith and Kason Gabbard at Pawtucket, and the Rocket and Clement as long term fill ins.

Just don’t trade any starters Theo.

]]> By: Barrythek http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/#comment-21452 Barrythek Sat, 24 Mar 2007 13:40:50 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/#comment-21452 Could it also be that every team we might aquire a closer from, feels Boston is so desperate before we moved Pap back into the pen, that we couldn't make a resonable deal for a Cordero or such? This way, they still may now get someone and change the rotation later OR at least this change could be for '07 only and we may either aquire a closer next year - or one may emmerge from within ala Cox or Hanson and thus sending Pap back to the rotation next year....or amybe earlier. In other words Theo may just be psturing for a better deal. Could it also be that every team we might aquire a closer from, feels Boston is so desperate before we moved Pap back into the pen, that we couldn’t make a resonable deal for a Cordero or such? This way, they still may now get someone and change the rotation later OR at least this change could be for ‘07 only and we may either aquire a closer next year - or one may emmerge from within ala Cox or Hanson and thus sending Pap back to the rotation next year….or amybe earlier.

In other words Theo may just be psturing for a better deal.

]]> By: HFXBOB http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/#comment-21034 HFXBOB Fri, 23 Mar 2007 23:44:37 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/#comment-21034 If we could accurately forecast how the trio of Schilling, Dice-K and Beckett are going to perform this year, wouldn't that make the answer a lot simpler? If those three all deliver the goods, it seems clear to me our best shot is with Papelbon closing. But if one or more of those three falters, we're better off with Paps in the rotation. If we could accurately forecast how the trio of Schilling, Dice-K and Beckett are going to perform this year, wouldn’t that make the answer a lot simpler? If those three all deliver the goods, it seems clear to me our best shot is with Papelbon closing. But if one or more of those three falters, we’re better off with Paps in the rotation.

]]> By: sonomasox http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/#comment-21023 sonomasox Fri, 23 Mar 2007 23:12:34 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/#comment-21023 Seth - Not sure if you came across this - but just another example of the "quality" journalism taking place at NYT. http://skepticalbrotha.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/obamas-pastor-speaks-out/ As for Paps to the pen: We've moved from closer by committee/tryout to 5th starter by committee/tryout. Might this push Theo & Trio to get Clemens?? Seth -

Not sure if you came across this - but just another example of the “quality” journalism taking place at NYT.

http://skepticalbrotha.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/obamas-pastor-speaks-out/

As for Paps to the pen: We’ve moved from closer by committee/tryout to 5th starter by committee/tryout. Might this push Theo & Trio to get Clemens??

]]> By: jtredsox5 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/#comment-20896 jtredsox5 Fri, 23 Mar 2007 20:59:24 +0000 http://www.sethmnookin.com/blog/2007/03/23/pap-to-the-pen-a-good-move/#comment-20896 I don't know about anyone else, but I reckon we can get a similar performance out of Kason Gabbard as we will out of Tavarez--and it will help his development. I like either one of them better than Snyder (although I think he will be great in the bullpen), but for me, if the performances are likely to be equal, I would just as soon develop the youngster as placate the veteran. But that's just me... I don’t know about anyone else, but I reckon we can get a similar performance out of Kason Gabbard as we will out of Tavarez–and it will help his development. I like either one of them better than Snyder (although I think he will be great in the bullpen), but for me, if the performances are likely to be equal, I would just as soon develop the youngster as placate the veteran. But that’s just me…

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